As before, if I don't attribute a statement to a specific person, either I didn't record who said it or it's a summary / consensus type statement.
Strong Female Characters vs Kickass Babes
Mod Rebecca Holden; Alex Bledsoe, Julia Dvorin, Holly McDowell, Caroline Pruett
Description: Can the two ever be the same thing? Are they always the same thing? What characteristics make for a strong female character other than sheer physical strength? Does she have to be a genius or show her vulnerabilities in order to be fully fleshed out, or is it okay for a female character to merely be tough, witty, and attractive? When we say "strong female character" do we mean the writing of the character is strong, or the character herself is strong - and what do we say if the answer is "both?"
Is it a dichotomy? Kickass babe implies physical strength but might be emotionally weak
JD: strong vs broken
AB: Gender ID minimizes it. Motivations for actions important. Can't stand "little sprites with gun."
Babe is a term of endearment; can be demeaning and patronizing. It's worthy of reclaiming but we're not there yet.
Examples of strong female characters: Molly in Gibson's Neuromancer, Octavia Butler's women characters, Lucy Lui in "Elementary," Fawn in Bujold's Sharing Knife series (intelligent, observant, brave, and has no special powers)
More on motivations being important for a strong character. Male motivations to save society from something vs female motivations to save her boyfriend. Difference in scale and possibly reader views of importance.
AB: Attractiveness based on what she does can lead to "babe"
Does kickassery mature into strong character? (Some said yes, some maybe)
Heroes: not necessary to save the world to be a hero; can relate to small things, too.
JD: Often female heroes are in small scale stories and males in large scale stories. Is this chicken / egg, conditioning? Reversing this is intriguing.
Women "clever" their way through everything vs men using strength
Discussion of how people read the text vs the intentions of the author.
Emotional maturity of the female characters important; how can we do this better? Also need more male characters with emotional maturity. Some writers shy away from the emotional impact of the events in their stories.
JD: No one mentions the PTSD almost all fantasy characters must have.
Need more relationships between women characters working together.
Works mentioned:
Neuromancer by William Gibson
Octavia Butler's work
The Sharing Knife series by Lois McMaster Bujold
"Elementary" television show
Class in Science Fiction and Fantasy
Mod Ian K Hagemann; Alisa Alering, Eileen Gunn, Madeleine E Robins
Description: In speculative fiction, we create entire worlds and societies. How does SF handle social and economic class? Is there room for improvement? If so, what?
SF initially dealt with working class issues and now is more middle and upper middle class. SF mostly ignores 95% of the population = the ones making the widgets that make the rocket ships go. Room for improvement!
EG: Mostly ignores class in her own work, but is more aware now and putting it in. Trying to note the way people mark their class from one another
AA: Money and status aspects of class; also entertainment choices relate to class. Harder to get these things across in a made up world
MER: Need to know history as well. Most fantasy ignores anyone between royalty and peasants. Medieval Italian med schools not only had women students but women instructors!
EG: Interesting how SF set in the future still has class markers from now or our past.
A class distinction: do you store your garbage under the sink or open in the kitchen?
Character attitudes toward other characters can define the markers. Discussion of intellectual snobbery/ classism/ education. Nascar vs ballet. Why not both? Assumptions you have to like this thing, pretend to like and/or look down on to be part of the group.
Use of language as a class marker: street language vs PhD. Also restricted linguistic codes, designed for members only; common in small communities where folks don't travel much. Example: asked where to buy an item, answers could range from "at the grocery store" (city), "at the National" (town), "from Tony" (neighborhood).
MER: Accent is also a marker. Have to sound like "one of them" to be taken seriously.
Writers told not to use dialect, accents because can be hard to read / hard to sell. How to use? The Color Purple an example of successful book in the vernacular.
EG: Have them talk differently; spell words correctly most of the time
MER: Small amount to imply dialect; light brush; word choice. Don't make it so reader has to slow down.
Discussion of My Space vs Facebook. Initially Facebook was a closed system; had to be affiliated with a college to register. In the military, soldiers were on My Space, officers on Facebook
EG: Work place class - if you want authority you dress like the boss
Question: is reading itself a marker of class?
AA: Has changed with time. Books have gone from very expensive to cheap and easily available.
Moving up in class can create isolation from roots.
Works mentioned:
AA: Highest Frontier by Joan Slonszewski. Students vs colonists on space station
MER: Foundation books by Isaac Asimov. Scientists were the master class and took care of everybody else. Also Space Relations by Donald Barr.
EG: Heinlein's Citizen of the Galaxy (YA). He had class stuff in his YA work but not so much in his adult work
Among Others by Jo Walton
Realistic and Unrealistic Sex in Fiction
Mod Margaret McBride; Katie Clapham, Deanna Lepsch, Ashlynn Monroe, Kate Nepveu
Description: What makes sex in fiction realistic or head-twistingly not? Do we want realistic sex? Is fanfic better at it?
Started with definitions
KC: realistic includes physically capable, emotionally consistent for characters, appropriate for situation
KN: realistic and good overlap
DL: realistic okay if you're reading for the story and not to get off. Unrealistic is okay, too.
AM: must be real for the story
Language: avoid overuse of any word. Stock phrases completely overused; some sound like disease is involved; some choreographic moves overused.
AM: lip biting is a cliche
KC: Watch your wording, eg thrust into and out of: how to thrust out of???
Word choices go from flowery through clinical into crass. Choice depends on story, characters. Tone of piece and purpose should determine the language you use.
Lack of specificity can be good; focus more on what's going on in the characters' heads
Problems: depiction of virginity and first time; authors with lack of anatomy knowledge; lazy writing. Tropes include woman coming like 18 times, regardless of partner's skill. Emotional awkwardness important, especially first time (losing virginity or even first time for these partners).
Avoid too much sex; reader may ask, "wouldn't they be sore by now?" and be thrown out of story
KN: Desire is sexy, along with what's happening inside their heads
KC: Start with the characters, what's their connection; the attraction is the most erotic thing. Nothing sexier than desire.
DL: If you're not in their heads why do you want to be in their bodies?
AM: develop characters and relationship first
Having more awkward moments helps bring more reality; needs to fit characters, though.
All want to see more enthusiastic consent. Also, more sex between couples who've been together for a long time.
Works mentioned:
"Mountain Ways" by Ursula K LeGuin
Alien Sex edited by Ellen Datlow
Skin Folk by Nalo Hopkinson
Dreamsnake by Vonda N McIntyre
Freedom and Necessity by Emma Bull and Stephen Brust
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